Underground league discussion

Nothing to see here, just respond to Sharculese in the comments below.

  • sharculese

    Guys, so this is where we’re going to work out the rules for Underground League. I have basic ideas, but i want everyone’s input. So here’s what I’ve come up with so far in terms of scores.

    cusses – 1 point, with a 3 point cap per episode
    really good cusses – 2 points, no cap
    being shown forming a non-game bond with another player – 2 points
    hooking up with another player – 3 points
    talking shit about another player – 1 point
    talking shit about another player to their face – 3 points
    crying – 2 points
    successful idol plays – 1 point
    cool idol stuff – 3 points
    jury reactions – 1 point
    good jury speeches – up to 3 points
    bigotry and bullying – minus up to five points per episode
    cool shit that doesn’t fit into a regular category – up to 3 points per episode
    saying a catchphrase – minus 1 point every time

    Also there’s a catchall rule called the Dan Foley Rule that says that, if one of your players is as consistently terrible as Dan Foley, or does one thing that’s super bad, that player is eliminated and you lose all points you would have gotten for them.

    Examples of players who broke the Dan Foley rule: Dan Foley, Varner in Game Changers, Colton in One World, Brenda in Caramoan, NaOnka, Hatch in All Stars, Brandon in Caramoan

    Examples of villainous or obnoxious players who do not violate the Dan Foley Rule: Abi-Maria, Taylor, J’Tia, Phillip Shepard

    • sharculese

      Guys, disqus breaks if you try to edit a super-long post, so further examples: Will Sims II broke the Dan Foley Rule. Rodney did not.

      • prettyboyprobst

        Was that Tarzan picture really necessary? I was scrolling down as fast as I could regardless.

        Do you want to finalize the rules soon, or closer to the start of next season? I bookmarked this page, but I’m not sure how quick I need to give my input and come up with ideas.

        • sharculese

          John did that. I found that picture when I was writing the Most Useless list, and he punishes me for making him see it by attaching it to everything i do here.

          As to when we need this finalized, there’s no rush. We’re not drafting before the cast bios are announced, and that won’t be for months.

      • EmAndScoutInBK

        Finally able to jump on to say I love this rule and everything about this league

      • EmAndScoutInBK

        Also, sharc, is there a way to PM in you in some way’?

    • sharculese

      Oh also, because again, can’t edit:

      crying – 2 points
      jury speeches – plus or minus up to 5 points

    • Roswulf

      I really like the idea of the Dan Foley rule, but I almost think it’s too lenient.

      Why should a horrible bully who crosses the Dan Foley line have their negative effect capped at 0, expecially given the scoring system allows for negative points? Heck, in theory this could make them MORE valuable than if they toddled along as a uselessly rancid player in the Scott/Jason vein. Maybe give them a value of -10 or so?

      • sharculese

        I may not have been clear. If a player is cut under the Dan Foley Rule, you retroactively lose all the points you’ve gotten for them for the whole season.

        • Kemper Boyd

          But what if a contestant is on -5 then they get Dan Foleyed and they end up on 0? Is there a clause int he Dan Foley rule that only negate postive scores but freezes a player if they are in negatives?

          • sharculese

            That is a point I hadn’t thought about, and I’m actually going to put a twist on it: if a player is Dan Foley’ed with a negative point total, they can continue earning you negative points, but not positive points.

          • Kemper Boyd

            This is a great caveat.
            The Dan Foley Rule shall remove all points and stop a player accruing points BUT can continue to accrue negative scoring. If the player is on negative points at the point of Dan Foleying they will keep that negative score and continue to be able to accrue negative points.

          • sharculese

            Yep. To keep it from getting too complicated and as a tribute to you for thinking of it I’m adding this wording to the official rule.

    • Assistant Dragon Slayer

      I like the bigotry/bullying and Dan Foley rules. Up to that point, as I was reading these rules my immediate reaction was “Colton would rack up as many points as Sandra under these rules”.

      What’s the legal term for when you take the entirety of a previous decision or opinion and include within your own, but you don’t spell it out because it would be a waste of time and paper? Is it “Included as read”? My defense of Brenda is hereby included as read.

      • sharculese

        That’s sort of the goal. You can theoretically do well by picking a villain, but it comes with a risk.

        As to Brenda – Nicaragua Brenda doesn’t come close to breaking the Dan Foley Rule, and you would actually probably have a lot of points for having Nicaragua Brenda. Caramoan Brenda breaks it with “take out your teeth” which very much Was. Not. Cool. but the flipside is it’s not clear how many points you would have gotten for having Caramoan Brenda to begin with. You have to be on camera to get points.

        • itsafuckingSTICK

          I’ll happily agree that is was totally insensitive and likely bridge-burning for Brenda to demand Dawn take out her teeth. Having said that, I also don’t think it rises to the level of all the other Dan Foley violations. Brenda was mean, the others were vile.

          • sharculese

            Brenda knew what Dawn’s biggest insecurity was, she made her reveal it, and she still didn’t vote for her. If that’s not vile, I don’t know what is.

          • Kemper Boyd

            Will we be able to do a consensus for the Foley Rule? Like we all conclude if we feel it has been broken. Did Scott Pollard or Kyle Jason break it early with their treatment of Alecia, I think probably but it’s a marginal call.

          • Diego Armando

            4/5ths majority?

          • sharculese

            Let me put it this way. A situation where I invoke the Dan Foley rule will be like the Varner vote this season. I’f I’m invoking the Dan Foley rule the consensus will probably already be total disgust with that player such that holding a vote is unnecessary.

            But the reaction to me listing Caramoan Brenda tells me there are marginal cases, so yes, for purposes of fairness it will in some way not be just my decision.

          • Kemper Boyd

            I’m with you on Brenda, that is a full blown arsehole move. The way she acted in the reunion was fucking horrible too.
            Would Corinne talking shit about Sugar’s dead father trigger the Dan Foley rule? For me it should.

          • sharculese

            Probably.

    • StormofCuteness

      Weren’t we talking about points for blurred out nudity?

      Other thoughts:
      Points for or against an injury at camp?
      Injured in a challenge?
      What would the thing inside her ear count as? (Other than terrifying!)
      Points for or agst if take a pratfall or something else we shouldn’t laugh at but we do?
      Points for starting fire without flint.
      Shouldn’t someone who says something that becomes a catchphrase or hashtag get points?

      • sharculese

        Let’s address these in order:

        I forgot about nudity. How about 1 point if they have to blur you for something you did accidentally (let’s call it the Amanda rule), and 2 points for deliberate removal of clothing.

        I like the injury idea, but I think it would be easier to lump it into 1 category where you get let’s say… 3 points if medical has to look at you.

        Pratfalls and laughing at things we shouldn’t are amorphous enough to go into the 3 point per episode bonus.

        Starting a fire without flint: yes that one makes sense. 1 point for being involved, 3 for being the person who gets the credit.

        Catchphrases are being punished. They lose you points.

        I’m not giving points for hashtags because that requires me to pay attention to hashtags, but you will get 2 points for saying the episode title.

        • StormofCuteness

          Yay! This will make every episode just that much more compelling.

          I didn’t mean an actual catchphrase (like the queen stays queen). I meant where we all make it a thing even if the person never intended it to be one. But, I get what you’re going for, and I applaud you for creating all of this!

          • sharculese

            So like “bro, I know?” That’s just too iffy to go back and add in.

    • Mike Hirsch

      I remember way back in Australia being in a league where Keith Famie got me points “for being a stumblefuck.” So this all sounds fine to me.

      • sharculese

        Keith F wouldn’t have got you any points if I were running that league, so keep that in mind when you’re drafting.

    • Diego Armando

      Should we give -1 points for players in a majority alliance who vow that they will shake up the game and then proceed to vote with the majority that episode (the FFGCSDT)

      • sharculese

        I don’t want any points (except idol stuff) to be for game related things. This is about characters.

    • corndogshuffle

      Figgy would have been much better at this kind of fantasy reality than she ended up being in Survivor Pick Four.

      • sharculese

        Looking at the list of things I’ve come up with so far, a team of Zeke and David would have destroyed MvGX.

        • corndogshuffle

          Thinking back, and this is pure speculation, I would guess that MvGX would be an unusually high scoring season in general. Obviously people like Lucy wouldn’t get anything (unless her purpleness was so amazing that it categorized as “cool shit”) but I think if you totaled up the points from every season of Survivor MvGX would rank very, very high.

          • sharculese

            Lucy got pretty salty in her boot episode. That would have earned some points. But yeah, I’m planning on running a test version of the rules over the summer using an older season, and there are a couple I’m already crossing of the list because I think they would break the game.

          • But would saying “salty” earn some points ie Mari?

          • sharculese

            What category would that be in.

          • Hashtag?

          • sharculese

            Still not a thing I’m giving points for because I will suck it up and pay attention to challenges just in case there’s nudity, but I will be damned if I will pay attention to the hashtags.

          • Fair enough.

          • prettyboyprobst

            Wow, did you actually find the time to do this?

          • sharculese

            Fuck, no I forgot to. Oh well, we’ll just see how it goes.

          • prettyboyprobst

            Doesn’t matter and would have been a ton of work. As a player, it’s always good to have room to cry foul after the fact. Only one can win (two… three max.), but everyone can complain.

        • Diego Armando

          ADAM WOULD HAVE DONE WELL. ADAM HAVE EMOTIONS AND WEIRD INTERACTIONS WITH TAYLOR.

          • sharculese

            And Jay. And he cried a lot. And played an idol. I think Zeke and David are still bigger point gainers, but Adam would be up there.

    • Diego Armando

      Maybe a point for boasting a challenge in an impressive fashion (like Michaela in the ta tas challenge).

      • sharculese

        Michaela would have gotten two points for deliberate nudity in that challenge.

        • Diego Armando

          I was also referring to someone singlehandedly winning a team challenge or dominating everyone else in an individual one. That is part of the reason Ozzy and Joe are so popular.

          • sharculese

            “That is part of the reason Ozzy and Joe are so popular”

            with people who post on the Survivor facebook page. I’m not rewarding their worldview for the same reason I’m not giving points for hashtags.

            Also, I’m just setting my foot down: paying attention for nudity is literally the most I am willing to pay attention to a challenge. No challenge stuff.

    • Prom King

      I am really on-board with this Dan Foley rule.

      • Kemper Boyd

        Agreed.

    • Something Quirky

      I’m not sure if this comes under catchphrases, but can we also lose points for players who reference the theme of the season unprompted?

      • sharculese

        No, because we can’t know it was unprompted. For all we know the PA running the confessional asked why they’re a game changer/blue collar/brain whatever and that’s how they responded.

        • Something Quirky

          Tbh, I’m happy losing points if they even mention it prompted.

          • sharculese

            I’m gonna let other people way in, but yes, I can see why mentioning the theme of the season is a point loser.

          • prettyboyprobst

            Like it.

    • itsafuckingSTICK

      Points for making physical contact with Jeff Probst? Extra points for touching his face?

      • sharculese

        I… don’t know how often that happens, but yes, that’s a good one.

        • itsafuckingSTICK

          Hugs, attempted kisses, etc. I’m just saying, I can feel the magnetic pull of those bottomless dimples even through my television screen.

          • sharculese

            Yeah, this is a legit great points category. I just have to figure out exactly how to reward it.

          • Diego Armando

            Should we give a point each time Probst goes out of his way to hype that contestant?

          • sharculese

            No, that’s validating Probst’s opinion too much.

    • itsafuckingSTICK

      Any chance there could be a reward category where every time a castaway earns the points, the reward goes up a bit? Not sure what exactly would work but, for example, if physical contact with Jeff Probst is rare then perhaps each repeated contact could be worth one point more than the previous? The increase could either be individual such that any time a specific castaway earns the reward they get a larger bonus, or collective such that any time anyone earns the reward the points increase.

      • itsafuckingSTICK

        I guess a simple version could be larger rewards for streaks: challenge wins, successful votes, finding your second or third idol.

        • sharculese

          Those are game things, though. This is not about rewarding game things.

      • sharculese

        You’re asking me to build exponential models for a thing that should be conducted in whole numbers. This one is not happening. It would be so much work for so little payoff.

    • Kemper Boyd

      Minus a point for an episode with no confessionals. It’d really screw people early in the game and that is fun.

      • Figaro

        Yes to points (or negative points) for getting involved in a showmance!

      • Kemper Boyd

        Self Injury, either positive or negative score so He Who Shall Not Be Named from Phillipines would be either a great pick or a terrible one as he was always having pratfall level injuries.

        • sharculese

          He Who Shall Not Be Named and his comic pratfalls are exactly the reason I decided to just do a lump category for medical attention. But, as I said, comic pratfalls definitely offer the possibility to earn points in the judge’s preference category.

      • sharculese

        “Gross sexual stuff” is already covered. What did you think “hooking up with another player was there for?

        Breaking the 4th wall needs to be on there. Good call.

        As for the first one, I’m iffy on it. I really want negative points to only be a punishment, but I’ll defer to community consensus.

    • Super duper fan

      I like every rule here, and I’m not really used to playing in fantasy leagues to tell if the point values are game breaking or not, but I hope that other people can help more with that than me.

      And as to ideas for points, what about someone’s voting confessional being shown, then it gives 1 point, but if that person is voted out, then it’s -1 point (or maybe even if they’re not on the right side of the numbers, but it probably is too much).

      If I come up with something else, I’ll say it under my comment.

      • sharculese

        I like the first part, but I feel like it’s so de riguer to show the confessional of the person being voted out that it’s not worth it.

    • I feel like there should be some sort of points for dramatic irony – anyone confidently saying “I will definitely not be going home this episode”; “None of us will be flipping” etc, and immediately proved wrong (within the same episode) should be awarded points. Or deducted points. Whichever. I’d tend towards awarded, because it’s such a classic reality tv trope.

    • prettyboyprobst

      some ideas that may be worth pondering (but feel free to shoot them down)

      – displays of schadenfreude (if not already covered by talking shit to/about other players)

      – being shown as not offering the expected amount of excitement upon receiving, learning about or ‘having’/not-enjoying the reward (the Sophie-Clarke-rule)

      – what about ‘good bullying’, meaning the bullying of people we don’t like and/or who bullied other people themselves

      – I like the idea of people falling down being an extra category. Most of these instances won’t necessitate medical attention and are just cute, little moments that won’t spring to mind when it comes to the ‘miscellaneous’-category. Also, I kind of want to see players punished for falling and hurting themselves, not awarded points, as would be the case as currently planned.

      – giving pep talks to the tribe before and/or after challenges: +1

      – disrupting people who give pep talks to the tribe before and/or after challenges: +2

      I’ll add more if I come up with anything else. Thoughts?

  • sharculese

    Another thing: I’m debating whether or not you get points just for having a confessional. I’m think a half point for each one, maybe with a cap. Any thoughts?

    • StormofCuteness

      I know I’m not the one counting so all the stuff I want to say yes to seems grossly unfair (but I’ll still greedily do it).

      Definite yes to confessional points, but if there is a cap it should only be per episode. And I’d prefer no cap.

      That said, perhaps there should be an episode cap on crying as well. For instance, do multiple confessionals from the same person crying count as 1 cry or for each time shown?

    • Diego Armando

      I think cap 3 or 4 confessional points per episode.

  • corndogshuffle

    TIL – I would be a fucking useful contestant for this Underground League.

  • sharculese

    Guys, Aubry reminded me tonight that we need a category for middle fingers.

    So: Single middle finger – 1 point
    Doubles – 5 points

  • sharculese

    For an example of what the extra points category is for: It’s for Michaela bringing snacks to tribal council.

  • forever1267

    A balance beam comes into play several times. Would Standing & Walking versus Crawling & … uh More Crawling be an idea?

  • forever1267

    I’m going to assume most of you are straight males, and this may just be too obnoxious / sexist / offensive an idea, so Sorry if I offend anyone, but something about pulling the bikini top back into place during a challenge count as an idea? For men, it could be pulling up the shorts?

    Vanity / Modesty during challenges?

    • sharculese

      This league ended up close to 50/50 in terms of gender, although most of us are white.

      I don’t think your suggestion is offensive, but I do think it’s already covered under the unintentional blurring point category.

      • prettyboyprobst

        Shouldn’t there be extra points for the party causing the nudity (e.g. Sandra in HvV, Kent in AU’17, maybe even Rob&Jeffy in Amazon), if not the same as the person showing nudity?

        • prettyboyprobst

          @sharculese:disqus

          In light of me opting to have Alan as a part of my Thunderous Three, I’d like to remind you of this suggestion I made long before the premiere, in the hope that you will take it into serious consideration.

    • sharculese

      But also, just so you know, our general attitude is that it’s totally fine to talk about how this show features scantily clad people of the gender you’re attracted to as long as you don’t do it in a way that sounds predatory.

  • Figaro

    How about misspelling another contestant’s name on your Tribal Council vote?

    • Diego Armando

      Maybe a point for fancy/funny vote writing.

      • sharculese

        Sure. That’s worth a point now.

        • corndogshuffle

          So like if somebody in Survivor: Thailand had spelled Robb Zbacnik’s name “Robbb” that would be worth a point?

          • sharculese

            I would let people debate it, but probably yes.

    • sharculese

      That’s not quite notable enough, but Iike the spin Diego puts on it below.

  • Alycia Swift

    Hey, Sharculese – I’m sorry I have not been able to participate yet too much but I will look at this tonight when I get home. Just swamped today.

    • sharculese

      No problem. We’ve got months to figure this out, I’m just excited.

  • prettyboyprobst

    BUMP

  • Diego Armando

    I’m here. Now what?

    • sharculese

      Draft now active. Read the most recent post. 4

  • StormofCuteness

    Finally! Also, when do we pick a team? Or?

    • sharculese

      Draft now active. Read the most recent post. 3

  • Prom King

    Is Sharculese still out of commission?

    • sharculese

      No, I’m announcing how the system will work this afternoon.

    • sharculese

      Draft now active. Read the most recent post. 2

  • Saturday Night Palsy

    Shit. I never responded to this. Am I still in?

    • sharculese

      You are, the problem is I forgot what article I drafted the tribes on and I’m searching through the archives to find it. If you wanna help me it would have been in mid April?

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        Super drunk plus, but I’ll try.

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        Do you remember if anybody asked a question related to scoring in relation to last season?

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        It’s not on weeks 4 & 5 of GC fantasy posts. That’s all I’m going through tonight. Drunk!

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        Not 6 either.

    • sharculese

      Draft now active. Read the most recent post. 1

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        Where is it?

        • sharculese

          Sort comments by ‘newest’

          • Saturday Night Palsy

            I’m on my phone on disqus! Is it on the liveblog?

          • sharculese

            No, its the most recent comment here.

            Its pick 3, so just give me a team.

  • I’m here.

    • sharculese

      Draft now active. Read the most recent post.

  • sharculese

    Underground peeps:

    So I found the list of people who signed up for this and like half of them aren’t even here anymore. So fuck this, I’m just letting everyone pick unique teams of 3. You still get points for your player’s behavior from episodes one or two, so think about that when you pick. Respond to this post.

    • Wait, we lost people. That’s so sad.

      • Saturday Night Palsy

        Yeah, who is gone?

    • Saturday Night Palsy

      Patrick, Joe, Alan. That’s how you win, folks!

    • Ryan, Ben, and Mike

    • Saturday Night Palsy

      I don’t think that folks know to search for the Underg

    • Diego Armando

      Chrissy, Cole, Ali. I missed the good ones.

    • StormofCuteness

      Ryan, Mike, Ali

    • StormofCuteness

      I’m so confused. Did I need to chose three people no one had chosen?

      If so, I chose Jessica, Devon, Roark.

      If not, please let me keep my original 3.

    • prettyboyprobst

      Alan, Ali, Mike

      I trust that you will come up with something to limit Ryan’s impact on this league. We clearly get to to hear from him a lot.

    • Prom King

      Ryan, Alan, Patrick

    • Hornacek

      Ryan, Chrissy, Joe

    • Dezbot

      Desi, Ben, Alan

    • Assistant Dragon Slayer

      Ryan, Ali, Ben

    • Maritimer

      Cole, Ali, Ryan

    • ExtraLargePelican

      Chrissy, Patrick, Ryan

    • Taako From Teevhii

      Alan, Chrissy, Cole

    • Super duper fan

      Ben, Patrick, Ryan

    • sharculese

      Shocked nobody is picking JP and his guaranteed nudity points.

      • Prom King

        Dropping trou twice would just be overkill. And… sad.

        Although maybe he can make it his thing, whenever the topic of hidden immunities comes up.

        • sharculese

          Maybe I didnt make it clear; Im back-awarding points for eps 1 and 2.

        • Saturday Night Palsy

          How many times did Hatch do it?

          • Prom King

            He gets a pass (in his first season only).

      • Maritimer

        I just don’t think he’s going to be worth that many other points

    • Blurry Denzel

      Ali, Ryan, Roark

    • Am I too late for this? Patrick, Devon, Joe.

      • sharculese

        You’re not too late.

    • EmAndScoutInBK

      Ali, Ryan, Devon! From my quick scan, nobody grabbed this yet. I wanted Ali, Ryan, and Cole, but that was taken.

    • PurpleTally

      Alan, Ali, Ryan
      🙂

  • Alycia Swift

    Sorry I haven’t posted much. Closed o a house yesterday.

    If no one has taken it, Chrissy, Mike, Ryan.

  • EmAndScoutInBK

    HOW DID I FORGET TO JOIN THIS LEAGUE

  • StormofCuteness

    When will we find out the points from the first 2 episodes? *No pressure. I’ve just had the flu for 6 days and need something to do*